Episode 265
Talking Baseball with Authors Stephen Dittmore and Marshall Garvey
Show Summary:
Host Bill Donohue begines the show by welcoming author Stephen W. Dittmore, who presents his latest work, Jim Gilliam: The Forgotten Dodger. This episode elucidates the life and accomplishments of Jim Gilliam, a pivotal yet underappreciated figure in Dodgers history, who played an integral role in seven World Series and earned four championship rings. Dittmore articulates the reasons behind Gilliam's obscurity in baseball history, despite his significant contributions and statistical prominence. Later, Bill talks with writer and historical consultant Marshall Garvey, who unveils insights from his book, Interstate '85: The Royals, The Cardinals, and the Show-Me World Series. Garvey’s narrative weaves together the cultural and sporting tapestry of the 1985 World Series, capturing the essence of a momentous event that resonated far beyond the confines of the baseball field. Together, these discussions offer a profound exploration of baseball's rich history and its enduring impact on American culture.
Show Details:
The dialogue commences with the esteemed host, Bill Donohue, who warmly welcomes Stephen W. Dittmore, the author of the recently published tome, "Jim Gilliam: The Forgotten Dodger." This text seeks to illuminate the life and career of Jim Gilliam, a pivotal yet oft-overlooked figure in the annals of baseball history. Dittmore elucidates the reasons behind Gilliam's moniker as the 'Forgotten Dodger,' arguing that while he may not be a household name like others from the legendary Brooklyn Dodgers, his contributions to the team are significant. He played an instrumental role in seven World Series and secured four championship titles, yet paradoxically, he remains absent from the discussions surrounding Hall of Fame candidacy. Dittmore's compelling narrative delves into Gilliam's background, tracing his journey from the Negro Leagues to becoming the National League Rookie of the Year in 1953, and highlights his remarkable versatility as a player who excelled in multiple positions. The conversation underscores the need to revisit and reassess the legacies of such players, ensuring that their contributions are duly recognized and celebrated.
Following the enlightening discussion with Dittmore, the focus transitions to another literary talent, Marshall Garvey. He introduces his work, "Interstate '85: The Royals, The Cardinals, and the Show-Me World Series," which captures the cultural and historical significance of the 1985 World Series. This narrative intricately weaves together the threads of sports and popular culture, reflecting on how the events of that year transcended mere baseball to encapsulate a unique historical moment. Garvey elaborates on the evocative imagery of Interstate 70, which serves as a metaphor for the journeys undertaken by the players and the intertwined fates of the Kansas City Royals and the St. Louis Cardinals. His book not only recounts the series itself but also delves into the aftermath and the enduring legacy it left on both franchises. The discussion highlights the importance of remembering these historical contexts, as they shape the identities of teams and their cities, making baseball a significant cultural touchstone beyond the game itself.
Takeaways:
- Jim Gilliam, despite his significant contributions to the Dodgers, remains largely unrecognized in baseball history, receiving no Hall of Fame votes.
- The 1985 World Series, marked by the infamous missed call by umpire Don Denkinger, profoundly impacted both the Royals and Cardinals franchises.
- Gilliam's versatility on the field, playing multiple positions, highlights his importance to the Dodgers throughout his lengthy career.
- The cultural context of 1985, featuring significant events in music and film, intertwines with the World Series, illustrating its broader societal impact.
- Marshall Garvey's book not only recounts baseball history but also delves into the personal stories of players involved in the 1985 World Series.
- The legacy of Jim Gilliam and the 1985 World Series illustrates how moments in sports can resonate through the decades, shaping narratives and memories.
Transcript
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Speaker A:Live from the WGB studios in Merritt, New York, this is Sports Talk New York.
Speaker B:All right, folks, we are back with Sports Talk New York here on WG Radio.
Speaker B: th Long Island's oldest host,: Speaker B:Beautiful downtown Merrick, Long Island.
Speaker B:We've spoken with amazing Mets Art Shamsky, and now we're in the midst of what I termed in the open, our cavalcade of authors.
Speaker B:I'm kind of catching up on a list of guests that I've had to reschedule because of my recent illness.
Speaker B:And I'm happy to welcome aboard tonight.
Speaker B:So let us carry on my wayward sons in our next guest.
Speaker B:He's a recognized researcher in the areas of sports media and intercollegiate athletics.
Speaker B:He is a co author of a sports public relations textbook and he is preparing revisions for a fourth edition.
Speaker B:His latest work is titled Jim the Forgotten Dodger.
Speaker B:So please join me in welcoming to Sports Talk New York tonight, Steve Ditmore.
Speaker B:Steve, good evening.
Speaker A:Evening, Bill.
Speaker A:How are you doing today?
Speaker B:We're doing fine.
Speaker B:We're doing fine.
Speaker B:I hope you are as well, Steve.
Speaker B:Now, before, before we discuss his life, why is Jim Gilliam the Forgotten Dodger?
Speaker A: at grew up in Brooklyn in the: Speaker A:I think the reason why the title does work, though, is that Gilliam's body of work, playing in seven World Series between Brooklyn and Los Angeles, winning four World Series rings between Brooklyn and Los Angele, being in the top 10 in a number of Dodger statistical categories, including things like plate appearances, runs and position player war.
Speaker A:And he gets zero votes for the Baseball hall of Fame.
Speaker A:And people don't, people don't think about him when they talk about the boys of summer.
Speaker A:I mean, he wasn't in Roger Khan's book.
Speaker A: was the rookie of the year in: Speaker A:I'm not taking anything away from them.
Speaker A:But Gilliam was in there day in and day out for the Dodgers for 11 years.
Speaker A:As a player in the organization for.
Speaker B:27 years, it's kind of glaring omission.
Speaker B:As you're mentioning in the book.
Speaker B:Now, I would like to know, how did he get the nickname Junior?
Speaker A:So that nickname was given to him kind of by accident.
Speaker A: In spring training of: Speaker A: Tennessee, and had played the: Speaker A:And George Scales was the manager of the Baltimore Eli Giants, who used to be based in Nashville.
Speaker A:And they still held their spring training in Nashville.
Speaker A:And so they were in Nashville and Gilliam was, you know, trying out for the team.
Speaker A:And he couldn't swing, he couldn't hit a curveball.
Speaker A:He was batting.
Speaker A:He was a righty.
Speaker A:Righty.
Speaker A:And Scales, as the manager, said, hey, Junior, why don't you get over the other side of the plate and try it from there?
Speaker A:And the nickname stuck.
Speaker A:And Gilliam actually went on to become quite a proficient switch hitter as a result of that as well.
Speaker B:That's a great fact.
Speaker B:I'm glad I asked that, Steve.
Speaker B:Now, as we said, born in Nashville, dropped out of high school, joined the Nashville Black Balls of the Negro Southern League.
Speaker B:1945.
Speaker B:Now, he was 16 years old.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker B:Wow, that is amazing.
Speaker B:Tell us a little more about his time with the Nashville Black Vols.
Speaker A:Well, so very little is known actually about that.
Speaker A: tatistics that exist from the: Speaker A:And there's a great book by William Plott that does the history of the Negro Southern League.
Speaker A:And he even admits he can't find statistics.
Speaker A:So we don't know much.
Speaker A:We know he played third base.
Speaker A:We know he was part of an all star team that played a game against an industrial team in Birmingham because he was listed in a newspaper as being part of that.
Speaker A:But we don't really know statistics.
Speaker A:46.
Speaker A:He joins the Baltimore Eli Giants then as part of the Negro Negro Leagues.
Speaker A:And he doesn't see a whole lot of action.
Speaker A:This is his age age 16 season, or excuse me, his age 17 season.
Speaker A:So he's not seeing a whole lot of action.
Speaker A: But by: Speaker B:That Was with the Baltimore elite Giants, Correct?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B: s purchased by the Dodgers in: Speaker B:And he went to Montreal, as so many of them did from 51 to 52.
Speaker B:How about his time with the Royals?
Speaker A:Yeah, so he had two great seasons in Montreal.
Speaker A:And when the Dodgers purchased him, they also purchased Joe Black and another pitcher named Leroy Farrell for a sum of $11,000.
Speaker A:And black and Gilliam, roommates throughout his time with the Baltimore Eli Giants.
Speaker A:They were two kind of different personalities.
Speaker A:Black actually graduated from Morgan State, so he was college educated.
Speaker A:Gilliam had dropped out of high school, not finishing his senior year of high school, so they were a little different that way.
Speaker A:But they got along great.
Speaker A:They were good friends.
Speaker A:And they go to Montreal together.
Speaker A:And in 51, they stayed together as roommates and played on that team.
Speaker A:Gilliam finished second in the MVP voting in the International League that year behind Chico Fernandez, another member of the Montreal Royals.
Speaker A: And then in: Speaker A: s major league debut in April: Speaker B:53.
Speaker B:He's the national League rookie of the year for the Brooklyn Dodgers.
Speaker B:Of course, he was a great ball player with Montreal.
Speaker B:Was there a glaring need in Brooklyn for them to bring up Jim Gilliam?
Speaker A:Well, I think in hindsight, I think that kind of depends on who you're asking on this, I think.
Speaker A:So here's my take on it.
Speaker A:The Dodgers at that point in time, like every other big league club that had integrated, didn't have black players on the bench.
Speaker A:They had black players in the lineup.
Speaker A:So if you had, you know, Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, you had Willie Mays, you had Larry Doby, Monty Irvin, those types of guys were playing every day.
Speaker A:But you didn't have somebody on the bench who was black.
Speaker A:And so the Dodgers opted to keep a couple of middle infielders that were kind of journeyman Bobby Morgan and Rocky Bridges and kept those guys on the roster in 51 and 52 while Gilliam was putting up lights out statistics in Montreal.
Speaker A: And by as early as June of: Speaker A: d The Dodgers win one game in: Speaker A:Or maybe win one, help them win one more game in the World Series in 52, and maybe that becomes the year they beat the Yankees instead of 55.
Speaker B:Amazing thought, Steve.
Speaker B:Yeah, that they could have avoided the playoff with the New York Giants.
Speaker B:Imagine that, folks.
Speaker B:No Bobby Thompson and no shot heard round the world because precisely, potentially, Jim Gilliam's play with the Dodgers.
Speaker B:Now, was there a feeling in Brooklyn?
Speaker B:Steve, we're speaking with Steve Ditmore tonight about his book the Forgotten Dodger.
Speaker B:Jim Gilliam, was there a pervasive feeling in Brooklyn?
Speaker B: Now they have the: Speaker B:Rookies of the Year.
Speaker B:Is there a feeling there that they're really building a firm basis for the future?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker A:I mean, I think, you know, there was, there was a lot of newspaper coverage.
Speaker A:You know, doing the archive research on this, you see a lot of newspaper coverage about Gilliam being groomed to replace Jackie Robinson because Jackie was getting older and, you know, he would be the person to move Jackie Robinson off that and then he would be the foundation for the future.
Speaker A:You know, Robinson obviously still played through the 56 season, so he wasn't ready to hang it up when Gilliam debuted.
Speaker A:And there were other young players, young infielders that the Dodgers had in their system.
Speaker A:Don Zimmer was an integral part of the 55 World Series winning team.
Speaker A:Charlie Neal came along around that same time.
Speaker A:So there were a lot of these guys that could play second, short, third base.
Speaker A:Gilliam was primarily a second baseman, third baseman, but moved to the outfield.
Speaker A:And so they were building this foundation of younger players, players to eventually replace, replace Pee Wee Reese and Jackie Robinson and some of the other mainstays that.
Speaker B:Went back to the late 40s, as you mentioned earlier.
Speaker B:Steve, a great point on the resume of Jim Gilliam is that he played on seven World Series teams and the Dodgers won four of those between Brooklyn and la.
Speaker B:Now, wouldn't you think that that would be enough to garner some interest in the folks at cooperst?
Speaker A:Well, you would think so.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, looking back on, in hindsight, being what it is, you know, when he came out and he finally retired.
Speaker A:So he retired twice at the end of the 64 season.
Speaker A:He retired actually three times at the end of the 65 season because he got reactivated in 65.
Speaker A:He got reactivated again in 66.
Speaker A:He finally retired in 66, which made him eligible for the hall of Fame at the same time that Sandy Koufax was eligible for the hall of Fame because he also retired at the end of the 66 season.
Speaker A:So it's easy to think that he got overlooked a little bit.
Speaker A:But I'll say this about those four World Series.
Speaker A:He's the only player in Dodger history to appear in four World Series winners for the Dodgers.
Speaker A:Koufax was on the roster in 55, but he didn't play in that Series.
Speaker A:Johnny Padres was actually still on the roster in 65, but didn't play in that World Series.
Speaker A:Gilliam was the only one to play in 55, 59, 63 and 65.
Speaker B:I don't know if Ted Williams was on the committee to bring Jim Gilliam into the hall of Fame, or is that just a writer's ballot, then?
Speaker B:I don't think he was ever considered by a veterans committee, was he?
Speaker A:To the best of my knowledge, no.
Speaker A:And I interviewed some people, some writers, national writers like Jay Jaffe and Adam Galowski, that write a lot about this stuff, and they've done a lot of archival research and trying to compare players from different eras and that sort of thing.
Speaker A:And both of them are just surprised that Jim Gilliam never received a single vote for the hall of Fame.
Speaker A:In fact, Jay Jaffe called it one of the biggest slights.
Speaker A:The other person that I would put right up there with that is longtime Los Angeles Dodger outfielder Willie Davis, who played throughout the 60s and 70s.
Speaker A:He never received the hall of Fame vote, and he's top 10 in a bunch of Dodger career statistics as well, and was an integral part of those World series teams in 63, 65, 66.
Speaker B:A great outfielder, Willie Davis, folks, you can Google him.
Speaker B:Take a look at Willie Davis career, great center fielder.
Speaker B:Now, I had always heard, Steve, that on the veterans, there was only one veterans committee a while ago when Ted served on it.
Speaker B:But I had always heard that there was a feeling that there were too many Brooklyn Dodgers in the Baseball hall of Fame.
Speaker B:This always kept Gil Hodges out as well, because the overwhelming feeling was that there's too many of those guys in the hall of Fame now.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, you know, Carl Erskine, before he passed away, I think, you know, he was quoted a lot by saying, well, we should put the entire 53 team because the 53 team was so good at the beginning.
Speaker A:We should put the entire 53 team in the hall of Fame or put the 55 team in there.
Speaker A:They all deserved it, and Gil Hodges absolutely deserved it.
Speaker A:Carl Erskine's not in the hall of Fame.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:You know, so there are.
Speaker A:Yeah, you look at that and there's what, six Dodgers, Campanella, Robinson, Snyder, Reese, Hodges, Koufax, if we want to count Koufax in there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, from that 55 team, there's quite a few.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's a good case right there.
Speaker B:Steve.
Speaker B:Steve Dittmore with us tonight.
Speaker B:Jim Gilliam is the topic.
Speaker B:Now, he was the only player in baseball history to hit a homer in the Negro League's East West All Star Game.
Speaker B:And in the Major League All Star Game.
Speaker B:Now there's a stat.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you know, I stumbled upon that and I double triple checked myself to make sure that was the case before I put it in print.
Speaker A:But it is.
Speaker A:I mean, you think about the other players that were hitting home runs in the Negro Leagues East West All Star game in the 40s, people like Buck Leonard, Josh Gibson and those types of.
Speaker A:They don't.
Speaker A:They never had a chance to play in the majors.
Speaker A:And then you look at other players from the late forties in the Negro Leagues that did go into the majors.
Speaker A:Guys like Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks, Willie Mays.
Speaker A:They never homered in the East West All Star Game.
Speaker A: So Gilliam in: Speaker A: And in: Speaker A:Billy Odell lost one over the screen in Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.
Speaker A:And he's the only person to do that.
Speaker B:That is amazing.
Speaker B:That is an amazing statistic.
Speaker B:And I'm so glad that you added that into the book because I'd love to be able to tell people that is a great statistic now.
Speaker A:And the funny thing is, he wasn't a home run hitter.
Speaker A:That's the other ironic.
Speaker A:I think he hit like 65, 67 career home runs in the majors.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, that is wonderful.
Speaker B:Now, Jackie always talked about having a black face in the third base coaching box.
Speaker B:Now, Jim Gilliam was the first black base coach in Major League Baseball history.
Speaker B:There's another great piece of trivia for people to use.
Speaker B:That is great.
Speaker B:Now it's surprising that there were none other.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, he's only the third black coach in major league history.
Speaker A:So Buck o' Neill and Gene Baker were both coaches prior to Gilliam being named coach after the 64 season ended.
Speaker A:So Gilliam, Gilliam was kind of forced into retirement by the Dodgers.
Speaker A: worst season of his career in: Speaker A:There's no doubt.
Speaker A:The Dodgers slumped tremendously after sweeping The Yankees in 63 in the world Series.
Speaker A:And Gilliam was an integral part of those teams.
Speaker A:He scored the winning run in the deciding game, and Gilliam has a poor season in 64.
Speaker A:The Dodgers had Leo Durocher as a coach.
Speaker A:Leo Durocher was going to move on from that role.
Speaker A:And so the Dodgers said, we're going to make Gilliam our first base coach.
Speaker A:And it wasn't even a big deal at that point in time, but Gene Baker with the Pirates, Buck o' Neill with the Cubs, that each spent one year as a bench coach with those teams, but they were never one of those that were on the field.
Speaker A:You know, you cited Jackie Robinson talking about a black face in the third base coaching box.
Speaker A:Gilliam was the first blackface to be on the field as a coach, and he did that.
Speaker A:And he held that role from on and off.
Speaker A: through his death in: Speaker B:Now, you know a lot about the Dodgers.
Speaker B:Maybe it's through your research, Steve, but did you grow up a Dodger fan?
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A: s and grew up watching the: Speaker A:And that was what got me hooked.
Speaker B:Ah, okay.
Speaker B:So Ron Fairley, as you say, Willie Davis, guys like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, those guys, those guys preceded me a little bit.
Speaker A:I was more on the.
Speaker A:The Steve Garvey runs.
Speaker B:Yeah, you see, I grew up with Wes Parker and guys like that in the 7 70s, early 70s, late 60s.
Speaker B:So we're a little bit off in age, but great.
Speaker A:Well, I talked to.
Speaker A:I interviewed Wes Parker for this.
Speaker A:He was tremendous.
Speaker A:He had some great stories to tell about Jim Gilliam.
Speaker A:Really liked him as an individual.
Speaker A: switch hitting infield in the: Speaker B:One of the two Dodgers to be on the Brady Bunch as well.
Speaker B:Steve, don't forget that.
Speaker B:That's an important piece right there too.
Speaker A:Drysdale, the other one.
Speaker B:Yes, Drysdale, who on Leave it to Beaver and a couple of other shows.
Speaker B:And that's another great piece of trivia, but we'll leave that alone for now.
Speaker B:Now, Jim Gilliam, as you mentioned, top 10 in Dodgers all time categories.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker C:Now he's there.
Speaker A:Oh, God.
Speaker A:Go ahead.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker B:Yeah, I just wanted to know if you know some of the.
Speaker B:The categories where he's the end there.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, he's going to be top 10 in plate appearances, run scored, walks, games played, things of that nature, overall hits.
Speaker A:But you know, he didn't hit for a ton of power.
Speaker A:He had a really good bat to ball skills.
Speaker A:So he walked quite a bit.
Speaker A:Walked about twice as much as he struck out.
Speaker A:So he had really good eye at the plate.
Speaker A:You know, he, I mentioned position player WAR.
Speaker A:I think he's tied for 8th with a career position player WAR of 40 point something, 40.7, I believe off the top of my head for Gilliam.
Speaker A:So he, he's in a lot of those categories.
Speaker A:He's not in the RBI's category, he's not in the home runs category, extra base hits, slugging percentage, some of those things.
Speaker A:But he did a lot of the little things to help the Dodgers win.
Speaker A:And I think that was one of the things that came through.
Speaker A:And just about everybody I spoke with was that he was a high baseball IQ person, never made the wrong play, never went to the wrong base or threw inappropriately to try and do more than he could or more than the situation called for.
Speaker A:And I think that's what really made him part of that glue for all of those teams.
Speaker A:Because he started more opening days on the bench for the Dodgers.
Speaker A:He was not in, in all that many opening day lineups.
Speaker A:And he played third base, he played second base, he played left field.
Speaker A:In fact, he logged innings at first base and in center field and in right field.
Speaker A:So he played all over the diamond for the Dodgers.
Speaker B:When you consider some of the players that have passed through the portals of the Dodger franchise, that is an amazing stat that Jim Gilliam is top 10 in several categories.
Speaker B:That really is telling right there, Steve.
Speaker B:Now I know the Dodgers, I believe that they wait until a player is in the hall of Fame before they retire their number.
Speaker B:Is that correct?
Speaker A:Well, that's kind of correct.
Speaker A: For most of: Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:Yeah, and they did that.
Speaker A:And I interviewed Peter O', Malley, Walter O' Malleys son, who was president of the Dodgers at that time.
Speaker A:And you know, he makes the point.
Speaker A:And this was a time when gil Hodges is 14, wasn't retired.
Speaker A: I interviewed O' Malley in: Speaker A:You got to understand the context.
Speaker A:We looked at a guy that had been in the organization for 27 years was a company man that did everything that we wanted out of someone affiliated with the Dodgers organization.
Speaker A:And at that point in time, the only Dodgers who had their numbers retired were Robinson, Campanella Koufax and Walter Alston, the manager from, you know, the mid-50s to the mid-70s.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Those were the only four, so there wasn't any precedent.
Speaker A:The Dodgers retired Hodges number after he was elected to the hall of Fame, and they've subsequently retired Fernando Valenzuela's 34, even though Fernando's not in the hall of Fame.
Speaker A:So Gilliam and Fernando now are the two Dodger players to have their numbers retired.
Speaker B:Not in Cooperstown, as you say, A company man who did a lot for the franchise.
Speaker B:Sort of in the same vein as New, because Don Newcombe.
Speaker A:Yeah, those guys, I mean, they played, you know, a lot of years together with the Dodgers organization.
Speaker A:And then, yeah, Newcomb went on to work for the Dodgers organization for a number of years, even doing so after Gilliam passed away in the late 70s.
Speaker A:I think Newcomb was there in the 80s and the 90s, all the way up until his death, I think.
Speaker A:Right, yes, yes.
Speaker B:He was an integral part of the organization right until the end and a credit to the man.
Speaker B: Now, Jim passes in: Speaker B:What did Jim Gilliam do when he left the game?
Speaker A:I mean, other than other than coach, you know, he did that during the season.
Speaker A:In the offseason.
Speaker A:He played a heck of a lot of golf, it seems like, from what I can understand.
Speaker A:I did talk with his widow, Edwina, and a couple of two of his four children agreed to be interviewed.
Speaker A:And, you know, he talked about how he liked to play golf.
Speaker A:He got a job like a lot of players did in the off seasons, you know, got jobs outside of baseball.
Speaker A:And so he worked as a spokesperson, salesperson for Hiram Walker Spirits in the Los Angeles area.
Speaker A:Did quite a bit of community service work.
Speaker A:I mean, I found plenty of instances where he would be appearing at a car dealership to sign autographs and things of that nature.
Speaker A:So he was very visible in the community, put in a lot of those pro am golf tournaments that Los Angeles has, the Byron Nelson's and the other things like that that are in.
Speaker A:In the Los Angeles area.
Speaker A:I think Byron Nelson's there.
Speaker A:I might be misspeaking on that.
Speaker A:But, you know, those types of golf events that that occur, played a lot of that and, you know, really was just a baseball lifer.
Speaker A:I mean, that's the only thing that he did.
Speaker A:The only job that I could find that he had as a kid outside of baseball was he worked as a porter at the Woolworth store in Nashville, the one that subsequently became part of the National Historical Registry for the lunch counter sit ins that took place later on at that Woolworth.
Speaker B:Ah, this is another great statistic.
Speaker B:Yeah, another great fact.
Speaker B:Now, 0% for, for the hall of Fame vote.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, I don't know how to explain it.
Speaker B:Did you talk to anybody in Cooperstown for the research, Steve?
Speaker A:I didn't talk to.
Speaker A:I didn't talk to anybody with the, with the hall of Fame or with the committees about that.
Speaker A:You know, I think I'm hopeful that the book at least has been gratified to do a bunch of interviews and just different discussions with baseball researchers and things like that.
Speaker A:So I'm hopeful that there's some attention that is brought to the fact that maybe a veterans committee should consider.
Speaker A:And to be clear, I don't necessarily think that his body of work warrants a position in Cooperstown, but I certainly think he warranted, at the time that he retired, he warranted a conversation and warranted being on at least one person's ballot consideration.
Speaker B:Yes, definitely.
Speaker B:Steve?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now, you took part in the author series up in Cooperstown.
Speaker A:I did not.
Speaker B:Oh, you didn't.
Speaker B:I thought you.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker B:That must be one of the other guys on the show tonight.
Speaker B:But that's okay.
Speaker B:Do you have anything upcoming, Steve?
Speaker A:Nothing else that is planned.
Speaker A:I did make a. I had a panel discussion with Bob Kendrick, the executive director and president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City a few weeks back.
Speaker A:A few weeks back when they did their salute to the Negro Leagues, the Royals were actually playing the Dodgers.
Speaker A:And I live in Jacksonville, Florida right now.
Speaker A:And I flew from Jacksonville to Kansas City and participated in a 30 minute conversation with Bob Kendrick about the book, about Jim Gilliam's life and about his role in the Negro Leagues.
Speaker A:You know, there were several people, you know, probably 100 or so people that were still in attendance there.
Speaker A:A lot of Dodger fans that had come in for, for the series that were there before that game.
Speaker A:The game was at like 4 o' clock that afternoon.
Speaker A:So this was like 12 o' clock on a Saturday that we did that.
Speaker A:But that was, that was the most recent.
Speaker A:I did a signing at the Nashville Sounds game when they did a throwback to the Negro Leagues.
Speaker A:Before that in June as part of Black History Month, the National Sounds had me out there, which is, you know, the ballpark in Nashville is at 19 Junior Gilliam Way.
Speaker A:It was renamed that several years ago.
Speaker B:Ah, that is very interesting, too.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Now, did you speak with Bob Kendrick about Jim's chances for the Negro League hall of Fame?
Speaker A:We didn't discuss that.
Speaker A:That didn't come up on topic.
Speaker A:We talked about, we talked about, you know, the challenges the black players faced and, you know, just kind of the, the overall.
Speaker A:And, you know, I don't know if you've ever had a chance to, to listen to Bob, but he's a phenomenal storyteller.
Speaker B:I've had him on the show, Steve.
Speaker A:Yeah, he is such a gracious person.
Speaker A:I can't say enough good things about him.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:And the whole Negro League hall of Fame is a great institution and love to have Bob on the program.
Speaker B:As you say, great speaker, great storyteller.
Speaker B:Well, Steve Ditmore, it's been a pleasure speaking with you tonight.
Speaker B:I thank you for taking time out of your Sunday night to spend it with us here, a few miles east of Brooklyn, out here on Long Island.
Speaker B:The book, folks, it's titled Jim Gilliam, the Forgotten Dodger.
Speaker B:And once again, Steve, we thank you.
Speaker A:Bill, thank you so much.
Speaker A:It's been a pleasure talking with you.
Speaker A:I appreciate it.
Speaker B:That is Steve Ditmore, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker B: he Interstate world series of: Speaker B:Stay with us, folks.
Speaker A:You are listening to Sports Talk New York.
Speaker A: FM and: Speaker A:And now back to the show.
Speaker B:All right, folks, we're back.
Speaker B:We're back on Sports Talk New York.
Speaker B:WGBB Radio Merrick, Long Island, New York, is where we are at.
Speaker B:We're winding down on our cavalcade of authors.
Speaker B:Tonight on the show, some great books to support your summertime reading habits, folks.
Speaker B: oughout the year, Cooperstown: Speaker B:That'll be next weekend, July 25th to 27th and entering into the the hallowed shrine through the portals for immortals, as I call it.
Speaker B:Dick Allen, Dave Parker, CC Sabathia, Billy Wagner and Ichiro Suzuki will be inducted.
Speaker B:Allen and Parker posthumously.
Speaker B:Dave Parker, unfortunately, it's a real shame missed his induction just by weeks.
Speaker B:I wonder who will be giving the speeches for Dick and for Dave and I'm wondering if Ichiro will be giving his own speech or if he'll have a pinch hitter.
Speaker B:We'll wait to see that.
Speaker B:We shall see.
Speaker B:Coverage will be Next Sunday the 27th on the MLB Network.
Speaker B:Brian Kenny from MLB usually handles the MC duties and soon assuming he will return to Cooperstown this year.
Speaker B:And that's all we will forge ahead.
Speaker B:Now our next guesswork has appeared in Dodgers Nation, the Sacramento B 80s baseball screen rant and many other venues.
Speaker B:He's the author of two books, the Hidden History of Sacramento Baseball and Elwood's Odyssey, which is a novel of historical fiction.
Speaker B:His latest book is titled Interstate 85.
Speaker B:That's the year 85, folks.
Speaker B:The Royals, the Cardinals and the Show Me World Series.
Speaker B:I welcome to Sports Talk New York tonight, Marshall Garvey.
Speaker B:Marshall Good evening, Bill.
Speaker C:Great to hear from you.
Speaker C:I'm glad to, glad to be here.
Speaker B:Wonderful to have you, Marshall.
Speaker B:Now I want you to give us a little background on where you grew up and who were your teams and heroes.
Speaker C:Well, I'm a lifelong Californian.
Speaker C:I was born in Southern California, but I've lived north in the state most of my life, chiefly in Sacramento.
Speaker C:So growing up, I'm from a Dodgers family.
Speaker C: My dad's been a fan since: Speaker C:I'm not related to Steve, by the way.
Speaker C:Everyone always asks growing up, you know, obviously love the Dodgers, went to a lot of Oakland Athletics games.
Speaker C:Sure to miss that favorite players growing up would be like I ultimately liked the Twins when I was young.
Speaker C:And that's kind of a, that's kind of a foreshadowing of the all Midwest tenor of this book.
Speaker C:So I like Kirby Puckett, I like Tory Hunter.
Speaker C:Those were some of my favorite players as a kid.
Speaker C: life in baseball in the early: Speaker B:Gotcha.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:With the Twins, I go back to Harmon Killebrute, Tony Oliva, Bob Allison, Don Mincher.
Speaker B:There's a great name, great baseball name for you guys out there and the Southern California.
Speaker B:We just spoke to a gentleman, Steve Dittmore, about his book on Junior Gilliam.
Speaker B:So we discussed a lot about the Dodgers.
Speaker B:Now for uninitiated new York fans.
Speaker B:Marshall, just elaborate on the i70 and show me.
Speaker B:What are we talking about there for guys who may not know what we're talking about?
Speaker C:Well, that's a reference to first off, Interstate 70.
Speaker C:That's the Interstate highway that runs through Missouri.
Speaker C: r partially or entirely since: Speaker C:And so that's where the World Series in 85 dot is named, the i70 Series.
Speaker C:Also, Missouri is known as the show me state.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker C:It goes back to some kind of quote that someone said, like, I'm from Missouri.
Speaker C:You have to show me.
Speaker C:You know, just kind of like a pledge of prove it to me.
Speaker C:Be honest.
Speaker C:So that's where the i70 and show me series nicknames basically come from.
Speaker B:Fine.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's great to let people know that, especially here in New York.
Speaker B:Now, the book really is a blend of baseball and cultural history.
Speaker B:You combine the two great 85 pop culture.
Speaker B:Let's talk a little bit about that, Marshall.
Speaker C:For sure.
Speaker C:Well, especially in the book's intro, A View to a Call, which is a pun, the reference to the James Bond movie and Duran Duran song that came out that year in 85.
Speaker C:1985 is arguably the greatest year in pop culture history.
Speaker C:It's like, where do you begin?
Speaker C:Where do you end?
Speaker C:You've got Live Aid, Back to the Future, the beginning of Moonlighting and Golden Girls, the founding of Studio Ghibli.
Speaker C:The Nintendo Entertainment System basically saves video games as we know it.
Speaker C:You know, tons of great pop music, Bruce Springsteen, Madonna.
Speaker C:Aha.
Speaker C:Tears for Fears, George Michael and beyond.
Speaker C:And in sports, sports probably was the single greatest thing in 85.
Speaker C:You had so many great events.
Speaker C:The Hagler Hearns war in boxing, Mike Tyson's Pro debut first WrestleMania, the first NBA Draft Lottery, Michael Jordan's NBA Rookie of the Year.
Speaker C:I go on and on.
Speaker C:And of course, one of the great moments and the one that.
Speaker C:That captivated me the most, Don Digginger's call and the i70 World Series.
Speaker B:Oh, boy.
Speaker B:We'll get to that.
Speaker B:Certainly.
Speaker B:Marshall.
Speaker B:Now, there you go, folks.
Speaker B:It's not just a baseball book.
Speaker B: , in music and movies back in: Speaker B:Now, that Highway I 70, it links the two teams home cities, but the individual roads traveled by the players and other people who took part in that event kind of before and after the series began and after the last cheers faded.
Speaker C:Yes, that's the primary purpose of the book.
Speaker C:I seized on that imagery of Interstate 70.
Speaker C:Like I said, I turned it into a book about the metaphorical roads of the Royals, the Cardinals, Don Decinger, both collectively and individually.
Speaker C:Like, again, where they went to, how they got to 85, what happened during that World Series and how those roads went in interesting directions in the years after.
Speaker C:Which is really interesting because the 85 series really largely faded from memory outside of Missouri.
Speaker C: and it goes all the way up to: Speaker C:And so the book, yeah, just explores how all these unique paths from 85 went in all these interesting directions and repeated throughout the years.
Speaker C:And it all came full circle 30 years later.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:How the series began and how these players who, as we said, took part in the World Series, how they ended up.
Speaker B: y tonight, his book about the: Speaker B:Now, you conducted, I read 27 interviews conducted by you, Marshall, including Brett, Ozzie Denkinger himself, Bud Black, Van Slyke, Mark Gubiza.
Speaker B:Tell us about some of these interviews and some of your favorites.
Speaker C:Oh, gosh, yes.
Speaker C:All 27 interviews were an absolute delight from the big names.
Speaker C:Yeah, like George, especially on the Cooper Sound out.
Speaker C:George Breton, Ozzie Smith, hall of Famers, even really obscure guys.
Speaker C:Honestly, all interviews were great and you see they have big strong points throughout the book.
Speaker C:But I will say it's the lesser known or even forgotten guys that made for the best stories.
Speaker C:I'm talking guys like Joe Beckwith, Royals release pitcher, talked to him two weeks before he died of colon cancer.
Speaker C: x turned his season around in: Speaker C:And it's so beautiful.
Speaker C:I talked to Kurt Kepshire, Cardinals pitcher, left off the playoff roster, but he poured his heart out to me about watching the Cardinals lose Game 5.
Speaker C:They could have clinched the championship right there at home.
Speaker C:But he feels a sense of guilt that he didn't get to pitch that game.
Speaker C:And he believes that if he had, the Cardinals would have won.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:I talked.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And there's so many others.
Speaker C:Lynn Jones, Royals backup, Very, very colorful and fluid storyteller.
Speaker C:He talked about looking over at the opposing dugouts.
Speaker C:For those who don't know the Royals, this is another one of many interesting things about the 85 Royals.
Speaker C:They are the only team in MLB history to have two 31 series comebacks in the same postseason.
Speaker C:And Lynn Jones told me during both comebacks against the Blue Jays and the ALCS and the Cardinals in the World Series, he looked over and with each game he could see a look of defeat growing on the opposing team's face.
Speaker C:Their faces.
Speaker C:So those are, some of those are just a handful.
Speaker C:We'd be here for hours and hours.
Speaker C:These stories were so amazing across all 27 interviews.
Speaker C:They all filled out the narrative in unique ways.
Speaker C:But it was like some of the lesser known players or even non players like Royals bat boy Chris Brown, like he had great behind the scenes stories including how he ended up keeping Joaquin Anduhar's game seven jacket, which he still has to this day.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker C:It's stories like that that really make this book leap.
Speaker C:You know, it's not just a recounting of 85, it's a deep narrative and these interviews were just a blast.
Speaker B:Oh, I can imagine.
Speaker B:How did you get in touch with some of these guys, the lesser known guys, especially Marshall?
Speaker C:That would come through a variety of ways.
Speaker C:Some are really easy.
Speaker C:Some have publicly listed email addresses or their Facebook friends.
Speaker C:I've been Facebook friends with Jim Sundberg for a while, added buddy Bianca Wanna there others took some digging.
Speaker C:Steve Barr's wife works in real estate so I emailed her through there.
Speaker C:Kirk Koet Shire's son is a doctor out in Colorado so I messaged him on Instagram and that got that rolling.
Speaker C:It would come in different ways.
Speaker C:Frank White, royal second baseman, is a politician in Kansas City.
Speaker C:So I had to send a request through the Jackson county government website.
Speaker C:George Brett was surprisingly easy.
Speaker C:Just taught, just asked a sports journalist in Casey for his number or to get through to him and George Brett just said, boom, here's my number.
Speaker C:So it took, you know, it would take a little bit of time to get certain ones at certain times, but.
Speaker C:And I had to go through a lot of a wide variety of ways to get all 27.
Speaker C:But ultimately they were all willing to talk and chasing down each interview was really exciting.
Speaker B:It must have been.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then to get the interview and to get the information, what a prize.
Speaker B:And I'd just like to know what the hall of Famers Brett and Ozzie Smith were able to give you.
Speaker C:Oh no, they gave me plenty of great stuff.
Speaker C:Well, Ozzie, Ozzie and I had a great chat about him growing up as a Dodgers fan.
Speaker C:I mean, obviously I'm a Dodgers fan too.
Speaker C: zzy killed The Dodgers in the: Speaker C:He was MVP of that series.
Speaker C:He told me one of his favorite players as a kid was Billy Grab.
Speaker C:Archivist.
Speaker C:He's cut a one season wonder.
Speaker C:I mean if that tells you what a fan Ozzy is, if he could drop a name like that.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've met, I've met Billy Grab, Barkowitz, Marshall.
Speaker B:I took a business trip to.
Speaker B:He lives in Dallas and he has a business in Dallas.
Speaker B:And I had a game used bat of his because I like the old Adirondack big sticks with the colored ring around them.
Speaker B:I had one of Billy's so I figured let me try to as you know, try to get in touch with this guy.
Speaker B:And this was before the Internet.
Speaker B:And I was able to get through to him.
Speaker B:And we met one day and he signed my bat for me.
Speaker B:We took a photo together.
Speaker B:I'll have to send you that.
Speaker B:And as you said, a one hit wonder.
Speaker B:I voted for him for the All Star Game that year.
Speaker B:That was the, the, the times when you had the punch cards, the computer punch cards that you had to punch out the guy you were voting for.
Speaker B:And I remember I voted for Billy Grabarkowitz because I voted strictly not on reputation, but on the kind of season the guy was having.
Speaker B:And I remember voting for him for Clarence Gaston and guys like that because I felt they were deserving.
Speaker B:But yeah, you mentioned Billy Grabarkowitz and that's funny.
Speaker B:If I see Ozzie in Cooperstown this week, I will mention that to him.
Speaker B:That is amazing, isn't that.
Speaker C:Yeah, definitely bring it up.
Speaker C:He'll.
Speaker C:Yeah, Ozzy just.
Speaker C:I was tickled by that too.
Speaker C:That was one of my favorite bits from him.
Speaker C:Yeah, with George Brett, he gave a lot of good stuff.
Speaker C:In particular, I love how Brett, Brett, you'll notice, takes center stage in the last chapter of the book.
Speaker C: About: Speaker C:And Brett just had a lot of really beautiful things to say about that.
Speaker C:He had a lot of pride talking about, you know when I asked him like what was like seeing all your old teammates come back to Coffin Stadium to see these playoffs.
Speaker C:And he said to me, like, once a royal, you'll die a royal.
Speaker C:And I thought that was really cool.
Speaker C:Yeah, George.
Speaker C: about giving a speech at the: Speaker C:I really like the uniqueness of that perspective.
Speaker C:George and Ozzy had a lot of great Bits.
Speaker C:But those were some of the standouts.
Speaker B:From those two nice, great stories.
Speaker B:Marshall.
Speaker B: Show Me World Series back in: Speaker B:27 interviews, two hall of Famers, some amazing names like Van Slyke, Gubiza.
Speaker B:You'll really enjoy it now.
Speaker B:So let's talk about.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, the thing that most people recall about that World Series thing, Marshall, is the Don Denkinger missed call, which happened and unfortunately defined Don Denkinger after that set the stage for us on that memorable event, of course.
Speaker C:So it's game six of the 85 World Series.
Speaker C:It's at Costume Stadium in Kansas City and the Cardinals are leading the series three games to two.
Speaker C:A tight pitcher stool.
Speaker C:Game six is like, oh, sweat out of your armpits.
Speaker C:Just every moment elevated, so tense.
Speaker C:But the Cardinals managed to take a lead, a one nothing lead in the eighth.
Speaker C:And they're only three outs away from clinching their Kent Championship.
Speaker C:Humongous, humongous milestones.
Speaker C:Except leading off the ninth, George Orda, aging pinch hitter for the Royals, facing Todd Worrell, heat throwing rookie sensation for the Cardinals.
Speaker C:Orda taps the grounder to the right side and it's the slow and really kind of weirdly shit weird play.
Speaker C:George Brett said that to me, it's just not a smooth play.
Speaker C:But regardless, the ball is fielded clearly in time to get Orta out at first.
Speaker C:One problem, first base umpire Don tanking her got way too close in his observation.
Speaker C:He viewed the play in two parts and the crowd noise was just ear splitting.
Speaker C:He could not hear the pop, pop, you know, fallen gloves put on the bag like he usually does.
Speaker C:So he sees it, he calls it as he sees it, like an umpire should.
Speaker C:Paul Gordis, safe.
Speaker C:And especially to all younger listeners, this is well before instant replay was implemented.
Speaker C:The call just stands, even though it was obvious to almost everyone and the televised replay show order was out all the same.
Speaker C:You know, it was just the first play and from there on was just a parade of royal heroics and cardinal miscues that culminated in a walk off hit by Dane Orange of the Royals.
Speaker C:Then Kansas City trounces St. Louis 11 to nothing in Game 7 to take the title the following day.
Speaker B:Oh, wicked.
Speaker B:And you were able to talk to Don about this play?
Speaker B:What I'm curious, what did George Brett have to say about it?
Speaker C:Oh, well, George is, he's one of the many interviews I quote describing reactions to the call.
Speaker C:George said, like I just said, George said he wasn't sure if Orda was out because he said, and George is right about this.
Speaker C:It's not a fluid play, right?
Speaker C:So George.
Speaker C:And it's not like he was saying it like in denial.
Speaker C:George just honestly thought in the moment, he couldn't tell.
Speaker C:It seemed a little.
Speaker C:A little off.
Speaker C:But then later, George obviously saw the truth, you know, that he was out.
Speaker C:But, you know, George and I agree with him and many others.
Speaker C:Like, at the end of the day, it's just one play and the Cardinals still should have handled their business.
Speaker C:But that was basically.
Speaker C:And George also puts a lot of emphasis on, like, well, you still have a game seven to play.
Speaker C:So that was basically his reaction when I talked to him about the call.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It was a monumental collapse, let's put it call a spade a spade by the St. Louis Cardinals.
Speaker B:And one line I heard from the whole situation, Marshall was when Whitey went out the next night and he made a pitching change and he got tossed because he said to Don Denkinger, we wouldn't even be here if it was.
Speaker B:If it wasn't for you.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:And Dankinger, and I quote this in the book, and Dankinger shot that, well, if your team wasn't hitting like 150, we wouldn't be here either.
Speaker C:And Herzog responded with a stream of a big tirade, including some obscene name calling.
Speaker C:So Herzog got tossed.
Speaker C:And then Joaquin Anuhar, who nearly physically assailed Bankinger a few pitches later, he got tossed.
Speaker C:So that was a very ignominious inning for the Cardinals.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And like I said, unfortunately, these events define that World Series almost.
Speaker B:Let's talk about the interview you had with Don.
Speaker B:How did you get through to him and tell us about the conversation?
Speaker C:Oh, wonderful story.
Speaker C:So Don was.
Speaker C: This was early: Speaker C:I already got my first two interviews, Buddy Bianca, Lana and Mark Dubizon, back to back days.
Speaker C:And my original publisher was really pushing for Jankinger, which is.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:If I'm gonna write the ultimate 85 series book, I have to talk to Don.
Speaker C:I got his.
Speaker C: an article about the call in: Speaker C:It's the story of itself.
Speaker C:But I was really apprehensive, really nervous.
Speaker C:And then I took it.
Speaker C:The day I was trying, I kept delaying it, like, I'm not gonna call Don.
Speaker C:I kept looking for excuses.
Speaker C:I watched my favorite video game channel.
Speaker C:I just listened to music.
Speaker C:I was like, I'm not gonna call.
Speaker C:Then I took a nap And I had a nightmare that I botched calling him.
Speaker C:So I got up.
Speaker C:It just went through my post nap days, called Don, he answered and said yes.
Speaker C: ay, which was Valentine's Day: Speaker C:This is by phone, by the way.
Speaker C:Dawn was joined by his wife Gail, and two of their daughters, Denise and Dana, and the conversation was a joy.
Speaker C:They're a super sweet family.
Speaker C:Dawn was a great guy and I talked about the call, but I asked him more about other stuff, like how did you meet your wife Gail?
Speaker C:How did you get into umpiring?
Speaker C:Tell me about some other feats in your career.
Speaker C:And he really liked that.
Speaker C:Yeah, and the family liked that too, so it was really sweet.
Speaker C: Unfortunately, don passed in: Speaker B:Yeah, it's great that they saw Marshall, that you weren't there to hammer him.
Speaker B:You know, you were there.
Speaker B:You were interested in his life, in his story and not just the call.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And that was one of the.
Speaker C:That's the overall purpose of the book.
Speaker C:You know, I do the call justice, but I tell a larger story beyond the call, with all these other moments and players that got overlooked and Don himself.
Speaker C:I show that he was a great guy and a great umpire.
Speaker C:It was more than just one mistake.
Speaker B:As we said in the book, folks.
Speaker B:The individual and collective roads traveled by the players and other folks who took part in the series, both during the series and later in their life, which we find out about Don Denkinger and unfortunately, as Marshall said, passed away two years after they spoke.
Speaker B:What else is happening with the book, Marshall?
Speaker B:Tell us about that.
Speaker C:Oh, well, the book is doing great.
Speaker C:I'm on podcasts or Sabre presentations or in person presentations and radio shows just about every week.
Speaker C: I even got to to attend the: Speaker C:So I got to meet these guys in person.
Speaker C:Still haven't come down from that night.
Speaker C:Yeah, there's a lot going on right now.
Speaker C:I am all in on pushing for a paperback edition for the book.
Speaker C:And then as soon as that's locked in, I will pivot to focusing on getting an audiobook.
Speaker C:So this book has, so to speak, a long road ahead of promotion.
Speaker B:It's got legs.
Speaker C:Go ahead.
Speaker B:It's got legs.
Speaker C:Hell, yeah, it's got legs.
Speaker C:People have been loving it.
Speaker C:I had someone recently tell me it was one of the best books I'd ever read, and he Compared me to David Halberstam, which I just blew my mind.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, that was his words, not mine.
Speaker C:So, yeah, the book is.
Speaker C:Is doing really well.
Speaker C:And again, I love talking about it, love sharing with everyone.
Speaker C:So, yeah, all in on the paperback for now, and then much more to come after that.
Speaker B:What would you say, Marshall?
Speaker B:Marshall Garvey with us tonight is the epilogue of the whole story of the whole series.
Speaker B:And basically, what did we learn?
Speaker B:And what's the final word?
Speaker C:Epilogue.
Speaker C:And I trace this in detail in the book, black two chapters.
Speaker C:But the epilogue is basically, the 85 series was of great consequence to the Royals and Cardinals because they ended up going through some tribulation before they won their next championships years decades later, especially the Royals, they had a lot of bad years.
Speaker C:But the main thing with the epilogue is you see how Don Dankinger learns to embrace life with the call.
Speaker C:He kind of.
Speaker C:He even starts going to Cardinal events.
Speaker C: e goes to a Royals reunion in: Speaker C:I think the epilogue ultimately, is that.
Speaker C:But for all the bitterness over the call, the 85 World Series was a tremendous chapter in baseball history that had so much more to appreciate and that in the decades since, 40 years later especially, everything's come full circle.
Speaker C:You know, the people from that World Series have gone on to live great lives long after they left the game.
Speaker C:Saint Muir himself lived out a great life before passing away.
Speaker C:The Royals and Cardinals both have won World Series since then.
Speaker C:So the epilogue, ultimately, is a pretty optimistic one.
Speaker C:You know, it shows how legacies and fates from a specific World Series can go in some unplanned directions and can ripple for decades after the fact.
Speaker C:And that's basically the long and short of it.
Speaker B:Well said.
Speaker C:I was really, again, honored to talk to so many of these people and capture their legacies all these years later.
Speaker B:Well said, Marshall.
Speaker B:Now, I. I also read somewhere that Don Deckinger at these events was.
Speaker B:Was welcomed by Cardinal fans.
Speaker C:He sure was.
Speaker C: like an Autograph signing in: Speaker C:And he went to, like, 20th anniversary reunion for the 85 cardinals.
Speaker C:You know, there'll be some events where he'd maybe get a few boots, but overall, fans warmed up to him.
Speaker C:He would find memorabilia.
Speaker C:He'd find, like, an eye chart, you.
Speaker B:Know, poke fun at it.
Speaker C:Yeah, he learned to have fun with it.
Speaker C:And so, yeah, he.
Speaker C:He became kind of an I, you know, a beloved villain like Mirror, more or less in St. Louis for some people.
Speaker C:It's an interesting arc.
Speaker C:I don't think anyone Would have seen that coming in 85.
Speaker C:But yeah, he again, he learned to embrace it.
Speaker C:I thought that was really sweet.
Speaker B:No, a happy ending.
Speaker B:A happy ending.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's for sure.
Speaker B:For don't.
Speaker B: with Chris Donnelly about the: Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:And that's.
Speaker C:And I found it so poetic that you talked about Chris and I in the same show about the hyper provincial World Series.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:And what they mean.
Speaker C:Like that's.
Speaker C:I remember the Subway Series.
Speaker C: the year I got into baseball,: Speaker C:What that meant to that whole city.
Speaker C:Same thing with 85.
Speaker C:It wasn't just loved by Kansas City and St. Louis.
Speaker C:The most remote nothing towns in Missouri were living and dying with every pitch.
Speaker C:It was a cultural event for Missouri as a whole.
Speaker C:And I love that I chose to show that baseball and the World Series really is more than just a game.
Speaker C:It's a transcendent event historically.
Speaker C:And I think my book, and I'd like to read Chris's, too, really shows that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the way you parallel the culture of the times, the music, the movies, the politics, everything really falls right in line with it then.
Speaker B:You did a tremendous job there, Marshall.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:I really appreciate that.
Speaker B:Well, Marshall Garvey, I appreciate you coming on the show tonight, taking time out of your Sunday evening to spend it with us here in New York.
Speaker B:The book again, folks, is titled i84 85.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, the Show Me World Series.
Speaker B:Marshall Garvey is the author.
Speaker B:Pick that up.
Speaker B:You really will enjoy it.
Speaker B:And thank you for being with us, Marshall.
Speaker C:Thank you very much.
Speaker C:Yeah, you can buy the book Interstate 85, Royals, the Cardinals, and the Show Me World Series again through Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all major booksellers.
Speaker C:Thank you all for your support.
Speaker C:And Bill, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker C:It was a great shot.
Speaker B:Wonderful.
Speaker B:Thank you, Marshall.
Speaker B:That's Marshall Garvey, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker B:That'll do it for me tonight on Sports Talk New York.
Speaker B:I'd like to thank my guests Art Shamsky, Chris Donnelly, Steve Ditmore and Marshall Garvey.
Speaker B:My engineer, Brian Graves, and of course, you guys for joining us.
Speaker B:I'll see you Next on Sunday, August 3 for more sports Talk New York.
Speaker B:Till then, be safe, be well.
Speaker B:Bill Donahue, wishing you a good evening, folks.
Speaker A:The views expressed in the previous program did not necessarily represent those of the staff, management or owners of wgbb.
